I am going to welcome you in to a conversation I had a few months ago with a friend about Beyonce, our debate about her feminism and the (sometimes subtle) omnipresence of rape culture even among self-proclaimed feminists.
So it doesn't get confusing, my friend's stances will be denoted with a "J:" and mine with "SB:"
Disclaimer: this is just a conversation between friends. That said, no offense was meant and I hope none will be taken. Also, please look past any grammatical atrocities, this conversation has not been edited in any way.
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The conversation started out with a discussion of music:
SB: "Thanks! Like I said, there really is not a genre of music I don't like... Even mainstream pop has its merits for me. Case in point... #BitchBad http://www.
J: Points well made. Some further curiosity led me here...
I didn't know of Chimamanda Adichie prior to this but her thoughts seem to coincide with mine regarding gender equality. I see it as evident that there is a false disparity between men and women on many of levels. I don't think a sustainable world is possible without changing this unfortunate reality.
Beyonce is undoubtedly multi-talented although I'm not personally a fan of hers. My primary disagreement is that it still conveys an objectification of women and a glorification of wealth. I feel that these provocative perspectives and attitudes that appear in pop culture sometimes evoke in the majority of listeners a sense of being proactive but otherwise don't inspire the actions necessary for true change. I fear superficial ideas that keep masses docile. It does have significance as one part in the larger impetus for progress and shifting society at large. I couldn't claim it would be better without such ideas but it's the form and method of delivery that I disagree with. I must sound like such a cynic but I feel that the record industry, predominantly run by rich white men with political connections, are the overseers of what can and cannot be expressed in the mainstream and it leads me to believe that the progressive views offered are still filtered, diluted and acceptable to those very dirty rich white men. I think egalitarian gender principles should be ingrained from childhood and they should be the norm in every aspect of our society or hierarchy will never be dismantled... at least not to my satisfaction heh.
Am I a hater yet? lol
I'd consider myself a proud feminist!
I want to hear your thoughts on this.
P.S. I'd love to see the day when Beyonce proudly declares "I am an Anarcho-Feminist!"
SB: "Thanks! Like I said, there really is not a genre of music I don't like... Even mainstream pop has its merits for me. Case in point... #BitchBad http://www.
J: Points well made. Some further curiosity led me here...
Beyonce is undoubtedly multi-talented although I'm not personally a fan of hers. My primary disagreement is that it still conveys an objectification of women and a glorification of wealth. I feel that these provocative perspectives and attitudes that appear in pop culture sometimes evoke in the majority of listeners a sense of being proactive but otherwise don't inspire the actions necessary for true change. I fear superficial ideas that keep masses docile. It does have significance as one part in the larger impetus for progress and shifting society at large. I couldn't claim it would be better without such ideas but it's the form and method of delivery that I disagree with. I must sound like such a cynic but I feel that the record industry, predominantly run by rich white men with political connections, are the overseers of what can and cannot be expressed in the mainstream and it leads me to believe that the progressive views offered are still filtered, diluted and acceptable to those very dirty rich white men. I think egalitarian gender principles should be ingrained from childhood and they should be the norm in every aspect of our society or hierarchy will never be dismantled... at least not to my satisfaction heh.
Am I a hater yet? lol
I'd consider myself a proud feminist!
I want to hear your thoughts on this.
SB:
Wow! She is mesmerizing! Thanks for finding this and sharing.
First off, you're not a hater at all! I completely agree that the music industry is controlled by wealthy white males that seem to have PhDs in how to perpetuate oppression. But I think there is certainly merit in the line from the Crunk Feminist Collective's article, "marginalized groups have the right to self-define." I believe that criticizing people, especially marginalized persons, for their language, self-identity, choice of clothing or even false personas they choose to present to the world, creates a horizontal hostility that only impedes the movement rather than impelling it. That said, I think it is VERY healthy to criticize the industry that most likely sways these choices if not downright forces them out.
Now, let's talk about Beyonce! :-)
When you say "it" conveys an objectification of women, let's dissect that for a moment. What in particular do you feel is an objectification? Is it safe to say that you are saying that the way she dresses or moves invites others to objectify her? This is very interesting to me, because can we agree that Rape Culture has very skillfully implanted in all of us a very oppressive way of thinking? And can we also agree that that oppressive way of thinking subtly exposes itself in your statement which seems very feminist and altruistic on the surface? Here is what I am trying to say: rape culture blames the victim. It says, "Yes it was tragic that this person was raped, BUT look at what she was wearing when she walked home in the middle of the night alone." We both know that is bullshit, though. It is not up to the victim to avoid getting raped by living in a state of fear and dressing and acting accordingly. It is up to the "rapist" NOT TO RAPE. So when you say that Beyonce conveys an objectification of women are you saying that, due to the way she moves or the way she dresses it is the only conclusion that women should feel belittled and men should feel justified when they think that she is subordinate, an object for their desire, and a?
As Adichie put it in the TED talk you sent, "[women are taught shame, cover up, cross your legs, etc.]." A part of me wants to say that if we feel Beyonce's dress is inappropriate because it turns her into a sex object, aren't we then creating that horizontal hostility again by shaming her for dressing like that. Rape culture dictates to us that since Beyonce dresses the way she does, she is inviting us to criticize her as a sex object. She is to blame for our vulgar thoughts because she acts the way she does, dances the way she does and dresses the way she does. I ask you to fight back against something that is so subtly deep rooted in all of us and say "THAT'S BULLSHIT." "Beyoncé can say and dress and dance and do whatever the hell she wants."
Now, I've treated Beyonce as a case study to prove my point, BUT there is definitely a problem in mainstream pop music. The Robin Thicke's of the industry disgust me and don't get me started on the tragedy that is Miley Cyrus. I think it is appalling that the only tools we seem to be providing our young women to feel powerful is through their sexuality and their appearance. I know this may seem like it contradicts what I was saying about performers like Beyonce, but there is a fine line between a woman who self-identifies as a powerful, yet sexual being and a woman who has no other choice but to use the only tools she believes she has been given. I have never witnessed Beyonce disrespecting herself or another in any of her shows, music videos or music. I cannot say that about every pop artist, although I wish I could.
P.S. Let's talk more about the tailored image we are presented in pop media. I completely agree. Although, I suffer from the "I just want to dance" syndrome. And pop music, with it's simplistic repetitive beats gets me moving everytime. HELP!
Wow! She is mesmerizing! Thanks for finding this and sharing.
First off, you're not a hater at all! I completely agree that the music industry is controlled by wealthy white males that seem to have PhDs in how to perpetuate oppression. But I think there is certainly merit in the line from the Crunk Feminist Collective's article, "marginalized groups have the right to self-define." I believe that criticizing people, especially marginalized persons, for their language, self-identity, choice of clothing or even false personas they choose to present to the world, creates a horizontal hostility that only impedes the movement rather than impelling it. That said, I think it is VERY healthy to criticize the industry that most likely sways these choices if not downright forces them out.
Now, let's talk about Beyonce! :-)
When you say "it" conveys an objectification of women, let's dissect that for a moment. What in particular do you feel is an objectification? Is it safe to say that you are saying that the way she dresses or moves invites others to objectify her? This is very interesting to me, because can we agree that Rape Culture has very skillfully implanted in all of us a very oppressive way of thinking? And can we also agree that that oppressive way of thinking subtly exposes itself in your statement which seems very feminist and altruistic on the surface? Here is what I am trying to say: rape culture blames the victim. It says, "Yes it was tragic that this person was raped, BUT look at what she was wearing when she walked home in the middle of the night alone." We both know that is bullshit, though. It is not up to the victim to avoid getting raped by living in a state of fear and dressing and acting accordingly. It is up to the "rapist" NOT TO RAPE. So when you say that Beyonce conveys an objectification of women are you saying that, due to the way she moves or the way she dresses it is the only conclusion that women should feel belittled and men should feel justified when they think that she is subordinate, an object for their desire, and a?
As Adichie put it in the TED talk you sent, "[women are taught shame, cover up, cross your legs, etc.]." A part of me wants to say that if we feel Beyonce's dress is inappropriate because it turns her into a sex object, aren't we then creating that horizontal hostility again by shaming her for dressing like that. Rape culture dictates to us that since Beyonce dresses the way she does, she is inviting us to criticize her as a sex object. She is to blame for our vulgar thoughts because she acts the way she does, dances the way she does and dresses the way she does. I ask you to fight back against something that is so subtly deep rooted in all of us and say "THAT'S BULLSHIT." "Beyoncé can say and dress and dance and do whatever the hell she wants."
Now, I've treated Beyonce as a case study to prove my point, BUT there is definitely a problem in mainstream pop music. The Robin Thicke's of the industry disgust me and don't get me started on the tragedy that is Miley Cyrus. I think it is appalling that the only tools we seem to be providing our young women to feel powerful is through their sexuality and their appearance. I know this may seem like it contradicts what I was saying about performers like Beyonce, but there is a fine line between a woman who self-identifies as a powerful, yet sexual being and a woman who has no other choice but to use the only tools she believes she has been given. I have never witnessed Beyonce disrespecting herself or another in any of her shows, music videos or music. I cannot say that about every pop artist, although I wish I could.
P.S. Let's talk more about the tailored image we are presented in pop media. I completely agree. Although, I suffer from the "I just want to dance" syndrome. And pop music, with it's simplistic repetitive beats gets me moving everytime. HELP!
J:
HAHA you're awesome. It's funny you say that because I feel the same way. When I'm in that type of setting it definitely gets me moving... to the point where I'm the only one of my friends dancing even though I'm typically the most critical of the music. That also tells me something about the reason why pop music is popular and the importance it has to our species (which is why I'm so disappointed by its current inability to generate more genuinely progressive ideas.) I know I can be overly critical of popular music and many times I denounce it as being simplistic. What I really mean is the repetitive themes and lack of artistic creativity, especially when it comes to rhymes and production. That being said, I can groove to it for sure... but you'll catch me laughing and shaking my head in dismay as I get down haha. I'd like to quickly add that dancing to me is a major form of cultural and individual expression. I feel that freedom, community, love, etc... can all be transmitted within those movements/moments.
Let's talk Bey! :)
First off, I have to say that I had a feeling there would be something subtle in what I said that would provoke some thoughts from you and I'm glad that was the case because you gave me a great response. I am aware of a rape culture mentality(shit, I guess I should just say "I'm a product of a rape culture"). It brings to mind the atrocities of corrective rape where women are sexually assaulted, many times by family or friends, as a means to cure their homosexuality. In the majority of cases they have no legal recourse because they are considered to blame, essentially being seen as inviting the rapist because of their own behavior. Undoubtedly it's the rapists abhorrent behavior that must be eradicated, yet our form of rape culture is arguably more insidious because of it's subtlety and surreptitiousness. If we don't know it exists, how do we mobilize against it, much less defeat it? In reaction to your poignant argument, I'm in full agreement without any convincing necessary. I stand with you in saying "THAT'S BULLSHIT"... fist in the air too? fuck it, fist in the air! haha. I MUST clarify my thoughts but I don't have to say too much because I'd really be reiterating you...
HAHA you're awesome. It's funny you say that because I feel the same way. When I'm in that type of setting it definitely gets me moving... to the point where I'm the only one of my friends dancing even though I'm typically the most critical of the music. That also tells me something about the reason why pop music is popular and the importance it has to our species (which is why I'm so disappointed by its current inability to generate more genuinely progressive ideas.) I know I can be overly critical of popular music and many times I denounce it as being simplistic. What I really mean is the repetitive themes and lack of artistic creativity, especially when it comes to rhymes and production. That being said, I can groove to it for sure... but you'll catch me laughing and shaking my head in dismay as I get down haha. I'd like to quickly add that dancing to me is a major form of cultural and individual expression. I feel that freedom, community, love, etc... can all be transmitted within those movements/moments.
Let's talk Bey! :)
First off, I have to say that I had a feeling there would be something subtle in what I said that would provoke some thoughts from you and I'm glad that was the case because you gave me a great response. I am aware of a rape culture mentality(shit, I guess I should just say "I'm a product of a rape culture"). It brings to mind the atrocities of corrective rape where women are sexually assaulted, many times by family or friends, as a means to cure their homosexuality. In the majority of cases they have no legal recourse because they are considered to blame, essentially being seen as inviting the rapist because of their own behavior. Undoubtedly it's the rapists abhorrent behavior that must be eradicated, yet our form of rape culture is arguably more insidious because of it's subtlety and surreptitiousness. If we don't know it exists, how do we mobilize against it, much less defeat it? In reaction to your poignant argument, I'm in full agreement without any convincing necessary. I stand with you in saying "THAT'S BULLSHIT"... fist in the air too? fuck it, fist in the air! haha. I MUST clarify my thoughts but I don't have to say too much because I'd really be reiterating you...
"I think it is appalling that the only tools we seem to be providing our young women to feel powerful is through their sexuality and their appearance. I know this may seem like it contradicts what I was saying about performers like Beyonce, but there is a fine line between a woman who self-identifies as a powerful, yet sexual being and a woman who has no other choice but to use the only tools she believes she has been given."It's not a contradiction at all because it's actually exactly what I was trying to convey in what I originally wrote. The fault is my own when I throw many artists into the same category. In this case I delivered some undue wrath to Beyonce.
P.S. I'd love to see the day when Beyonce proudly declares "I am an Anarcho-Feminist!"
SB:
Just to throw a kink into our conversation, here is a great response I found debating a different perspective: http://realcoloredgirls.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/the-problem-with-beyhive-bottom-bitch-feminism/ Thoughts?
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So there you have it. A little glimpse into my private world and my conversations with friends... about Beyonce, of course. What are your thoughts?
Just to throw a kink into our conversation, here is a great response I found debating a different perspective: http://realcoloredgirls.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/the-problem-with-beyhive-bottom-bitch-feminism/ Thoughts?
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So there you have it. A little glimpse into my private world and my conversations with friends... about Beyonce, of course. What are your thoughts?
